Setting the Scene
If we do not know something, we fear it. But if you know, then you are guarded. Knowledge is defense.
JANE
Godfrey is a partner and chief technology officer in End Plastic Pollution, a waste management organization that started in Uganda and that focuses on the intersection between people, the environment and the economy. They are working on implementing a zero waste model for local communities. Godfrey has developed a very effective use for AI in waste management. He’ll tell us about it and share his views about the future as he sees it.
So I understand that you’re the technology officer at End Plastic Pollution and I’m very interested in knowing what you do from an IT viewpoint. How does that relate to End Plastic Pollution?
End Plastic Pollution – Godfrey’s beginning
From the beginning, how we started, it was about designing a website for them, and later when I joined the organization after it was registered. So I became a partner in business, a partner also in ending plastic and some waste that is generated from the people. So from the point of view on my side technologically, how we manage these things, we do publish the brand audits that are wrote on board, I’m the person who is in charge of that. So I publish them on the website. We are currently developing some application that will be used by different people.
I don’t know if you talked about the Kollekt Village. I saw it in the interview that you had with Sadrach.
JANE
Yes, yes, we did a little bit, but tell me more about it.
The purpose of the Kollekt Village and the app
So now, the Kollekt Village is currently present right now, but actually we wanted to implement some technology co-part of it, so there comes the Kollekt app that we are developing right now. I think it will be in release in about two months.
Yeah, so the Kollekt app includes the recyclers, includes the collectors. It includes the generators, waste generators, and also green earth campaigners. So those people, organizations that do want to run campaigns, maybe we are going to clean up a city some place so they can host their campaigns just on the app. People can join the campaign, others can support in terms of funding. We have been developing using cryptocurrency since it is more worldwide, moving worldwide than local currencies. Like Uganda shillings, you have to have a lot of patents with those communications or the phone companies. So crypto, we found it easy to integrate and also easy to distribute between people.
Basically, that it is how it is. But if I have some waste, organic, plastic, metallic, e-waste waste, so I just submit my require that I do have an estimate of two kilograms. Then the collector will be notified, the nearby collector will be notified, and then they will come and pick my waste. They pay me and then they take the waste. So they will notify the recycler that we have some waste that we are bringing, it is about maybe one ton, 10 tons. So once they reach that site, they also receive their payment. So it is about a circular economy.
How do you use AI in the app?
And that’s quite more advanced than it was a couple years ago when I talked with Nirere. How do you use AI?
GODFREY
Now in the Kollekt app, how we are going to be applying AI. We have random modules with about 50,000 images just for processing and understanding which image goes where so we get to know that this is a recyclable waste, this is not recyclable. This is metallic, this is plastic. So all that has been included in the model. So the app will be able to identify by just now flashing the camera on the waste that the user is going to distribute out to the collectors.
So basically, what we are doing right now with AI is to sort waste. It’s a sorting for the users so you get to know that this is metal, e-waste, plastic, just like that.
JANE
Are you aware of other people using AI in terms of identifying types of waste, other people in different parts of the world? Or is this fairly unique?
GODFREY
I’ve been seeing some on YouTube and most of them are located in Nigeria. But unfortunately for them, what they are saying, they built up machines. Yeah, they built up a station where you come with your plastic, but this time what we are aiming at is to make the user at least feel the use of the app. You feel like something is right with you. You do not have to travel, maybe somebody concerned has to come.
How will the app evolve over the near future?
How do you see this evolving, say over the next five or six years? Do you have some plans for the app and how it’s used?
GODFREY
Based on what we have right now, I’m going to talk about some models that we do have right here in Uganda. You find out that the waste management sector, I’m calling it a sector, but actually it is not known to the government. But waste management in Uganda, you’ll find that if I buy something, I’m given some extra packaging of which I have no use for it, like bottles, wet wipes. So most people do just dump. But otherwise, we can turn waste into gain or income, or something like that. We can either recycle, and that is part of the Kollekt app program whereby if we get sponsors, maybe from out there, maybe from local companies, government, that this sponsor have this program. Then we shall take the donations from those sponsors and give it as rewards to the people who plant trees because that is one of the things in the app. Those who recycle the waste that is being generated and then those who well-sort the waste, so that is part of it.
You realize that when people get the waste, they normally just dump it off, whether it is organic or inorganic. I will say inorganic for metallic, e-waste and others. They will just dispose it off and that is at times not good for the cities, for the locations where they are. Climate change, carbon emissions and also methane gas. So there is that emission that comes up and then makes the air not pure. But if we have the app and somebody knows that I’m going to get something out of maybe this printer, this old laptop, this plastic bottle, then the person will not be able to just dispose it off. They’ll wait.
Reversing the dumping center system
Now another problem that we are having is the dumping centers. We realized that we do have the waste generated by people, but actually we failed to find people who are going to pick it up. So some of them pack it in polythene bags of about 100-kilograms and when the bag is full, they wait for the truck. Now the model that has been running in Uganda is in a way that the generator pays the collector, and then the collector dumps the waste in the dumping centers. So the app wants to reverse the way the system has been running. So if I generate waste, you pay me for generating that waste. So you take that waste to a recycler, the recycler will repay you. Then it is upon the recycler to build up something that is new and then bring it back to the market. Yeah, so that is how the app is going to be flowing.
Now in the future trends of the app, so far right now we are running on our [inaudible 00:08 :30] or minimal open source. Most of the things are going to be running on open source so at times, we get to limitations of speed, data storage and other things. So in the future prospects of the app, that is when we are going to have something that is more flourishing when we will pay for different servers and different people. Also, some of the things that are going to be from the Kollekt app, they are going to be surveys that are going to be done monthly, on a monthly basis, to question these people how they are finding the app, how they are managing their waste and the rest of the rights.
So now, with that data collected, it is going to anonymous. So once it is collected, then NGOs, researchers, governments can come up to the board and say, “We need to see the statistics of how the district, the country or some region that is performing with the waste, how much waste is generated, how much waste is recycled and how much is taken maybe back to the environment.” Because we expect that to be still running, but if people get to know the Kollekt app when it is fully done, I think they will love it because they are going to be getting something.
How will NGOs, the government and other organizations work with you?
So these organizations, the NGOs and others that want the data, they will then use the data themselves in publicizing their own activities, is that right?
GODFREY
Yeah. And also, having some statistics. Like for example, we can come up maybe to a local government and we say, “We are generating maybe two tons per month of waste and this is affecting the environment, climate change.” If you have no proof of what you’re talking about, they will just sue you.
JANE
Well, that’s interesting. So you’re providing hard data that could be used in different ways by different people.
GODFREY
Yeah.
JANE
And using it with the government is very interesting. Are the government people eager to get the data?
GODFREY
Currently, waste management in Africa is still poor.
JANE
Yes.
Lack of relevant, useful laws about waste
Yeah. I’ve been looking at the president of Burkina Faso, some of the videos that are posted on YouTube and they are saying they are calling upon all African countries that have waste, that you do generate waste, to take it to Burkina Faso because they have use for it. And that is the only country I’ve seen in Africa or heard about in Africa, that is advertising such a thing.
But when it comes to the government, when you look at Uganda, actually we do not have laws. And if they are there, they are not strict. People just dump. You buy maybe a mineral water, you take the water, you just dump in the road, the plastic and you just move on. That is what they are doing. So I think if we have more campaigns and more stuff running underground, they will come to know. We lack policies, we lack laws that are actually dealing with waste management.
JANE
I interviewed someone from China a couple years ago and he told me about how a lot of western countries ship their waste to a place in China, and then those places distribute it, sort it out on different categories. They could probably use an app like yours.
Why we use cryptocurrency
Yeah. I don’t know about. Waste colonialism is also part of what we may daily face as Africans, whereby some countries bring waste into other countries of which where they dump it, even those people are not aware of how to convert it into something good.
But the Kollekt app, now what we are aiming it is having something that can work in whichever country. That’s why we came up with the cryptocurrency because if we base on US dollar and then we have crypto, somebody can use a card, can use mobile money, have the traditional payment methods we have here, and then they make up some money.
JANE
Yeah, very interesting. You’re thinking ahead.
GODFREY
Yeah.
JANE
And you have a vision for your app that goes beyond just where you are and what you’re doing now. That’s really good. Do you have a network of people like you in different countries and do you communicate together?
GODFREY
Currently, me, I just sit in the development office. But the other team under End Plastic Pollution, they do move around the world. So we have the GAIA Network, we have people from Tanzania, South Africa, Nigeria. And those people, I think they will also accept and receive the app. Yeah, they will welcome it.
From “AI will replace you” to “AI can augment you”
I’m interested in knowing what you did before you got into this and what was it … When I say before you got into this, I mean before you got into IT and specifically AI, using AI to build an app like this. What were you doing before and what triggered you to make this part of your career?
GODFREY
I’ve been a self-teacher towards computer science. I learned some robotics, I learned software engineering and application development. But after university, I realized there are nodules ready for us. So I looked at some of the people in Kampala, those who say, “We studied software engineering,” and they are actually selling computers instead of developing software that can help solve problems.
So I took up the challenge and say to myself, “I have to move within the field that I studied.” So I pushed, I pushed. The introduction of AI almost kicked me out, that’s the truth.
JANE
Really?
GODFREY
Yeah.
JANE
What do you mean?
GODFREY
Sadrach called me and told me, “You know what, man? We no longer need you, AI has replaced you.”
JANE
No.
GODFREY
So I had to find ways of using AI to do more, rather than just taking off from the IT department or running from computer science. So I took the challenge, started learning how to use it, integrate it to different things. So I found myself still used fully in the community.
JANE
What you just described has happened to a lot of people.
GODFREY
Yeah.
JANE
Or a lot of people fear that AI will take their jobs. They don’t understand that they can use AI to augment what they’re doing.
AI will not overtake humans
Actually, AI with human, what I know most is during the time when I studied robotics online, we had a few rules in robotics. A robot should protect human. A robot should protect its existence. And then a robot should not obey some law, that is the thought, as long as it does not contradict with the first two laws.
JANE
Yes.
GODFREY
So you come to realize that human is actually destroying his planet, is destroying humanity because we have carbonation, green gas emissions, all those ones affecting our health. So you realize that if we are to take AI to machines, I think at one point, one time, that machines can turn against us just to reduce on the number, just to reduce on the number, but then leave humans to thrive and then we regrow again.
But otherwise, currently what I can say about AI, AI is based on the data we provide. For example, in the Kollekt app, I’ve put 50,000 images just to help my model learn how to sort different waste that is going to be visioned with the camera by the user. So you realize that AI depends on the match on the data that is provided to it. When it comes to ChatGPT from OpenAI, DeepSeek and others, those ones, the text prompt AI, you realize that all that depends on what people have been posting online. So if it is so, then I don’t think AI can overtake human.
But further, we have to always find use for AI instead of just pushing it away because when we see how we have been shifting, revolving from the EDVAC computers, to Palmtops and other computers, coming to AI, you see that the world is moving forward in terms of technology. People are now talking of quantum computing, which I think some of them are already out in China, in US. So if we are to run away, then it won’t be a good thing for us, but we just have to find something good. And then how can we best use this?
GODFREY
AI cannot totally be used in waste management. We can use AI in videography, we can use AI in transportation, agriculture, sustainability. I actually love AI just because at times you’re out of ideas, you go to it, ask it and then it gives you something that has a broader view. And then when you try to challenge it, “Please, what if we add this? What if we remove this?” It will tell you that something you’re thinking about is actually more good and then it will brain bust with you. So if all people can find AI as I do, then I think it will be a good thing for human.
Humans fear most what they don’t know, so kids introduced to problem solving and AI will have a brighter future
JANE
What advice would you give to the young generations, the kids? Eight, nine, ten, eleven-years old. What would you tell them to think about or do? I’m thinking in particular with IT and AI.
GODFREY
That age in Uganda, that age, eleven, ten, people, they are still in nursery. But when it comes to the western and other countries, I think one thing I can say. We do have some programs, I’ve seen some DIY projects people are doing, they create up some things and then they bring to these kids. I think that is a good thing. Also, thinking in the way of problem solving, that is another good thing that the young generation can pick up right from the start such that during the time when they are mature, they have something that can help them.
But IT, computing, AI, all those things are good. Yeah, they are not bad at all. And maybe one thing I can encourage parents also in Africa and outside world, it is time to let their kids start learning these things because they are good. In the future, that is what they will find. And you find out that humans fear most what they don’t know. But if you understand something, then you cannot fear it, you just approach. So if the kids are introduced to computing knowledge, AI and other vast things in technology, then they will have a brighter future during their generations.
JANE
What was the thing you said at the beginning of your answer about that age of children and Uganda? I didn’t quite catch it.
GODFREY
Actually, the education policy is not good in Africa.
JANE
Ah, okay.
GODFREY
Yeah, that is what I can say. Because you realize that kids already know that I use my eyes for seeing, but from baby class to middle, you come to P1, you are still learning eyes for seeing. So by the time you have spent a lot of years just learning something that you already know, that is something that is kicking back African countries from learning vast things.
The future and humans, over the next 10 to 20 years
Have you ever thought about, how would I say it, what major innovation could happen in the long term, 20 years, 30 years from now, that would make a difference to us as humans? I know that’s a difficult question.
GODFREY
It is a bit tricky, but I will answer it according to my understanding. What I realized from humans, generations after generations, we also find out things that really make our lives softer. We never want to do things the hard way. Yeah, that is one thing I’ve realized from humans. So whichever way we are going, to quantum computing, AI and other technology development, I think AGI is also about to be produced, all of that is happening, all of that will happen in years to come, it will make the life more better. So AI development, technology development and any other thing that will come up in the future, I think it will make life more easier for humans, rather than doing things the hard way.
But we have to think for those generations to come. Always, if we have things being done maybe by robots, I see China and Korea they are producing out massive humanoids, so you realize that most people will actually lack employment. Yeah, that is the truth. Was it last year or 2025, I read some news on Google and they were saying that Microsoft has suspended 2000 employees just because they cannot use AI and they need people who can use AI. So if we come to things like that, then that means the world ahead could be in darkness. Could be, I’m saying could be. So we have to think of what problems we actually face as humans, how we can integrate our lifestyle into technology, and then also train the young generations of how to think better than the current generations are doing. Because if they don’t, then that means the future will be hard for them.
JANE
Yeah. How do you see your own work evolving over, what, 10 years?
GODFREY
My work is now moving fine with AI because I’m assisted by AI and my colleagues. But actually, during the days before AI, I used to struggle. You’ll give me a project to develop for me a system like this, I could now make a budget maybe thinking it could be done maybe in four months or six months, but you realize that the project scales up to eight, to ten months. But with AI, even two weeks I can get done with the work that I have on the desk. So I think the more we prosper, the more we move on, things will get more better.
Living in uncertainty means we need knowledge as defense
Do you believe that the future is uncertain, that we don’t know and cannot predict what’s going to happen? And if so, how can we live in uncertainty?
GODFREY
Yeah. There is something I say. If we do not know something, we fear it. But if you know, then you are guarded. Knowledge is defense. AI with human or machines with human, we come to the very understanding that AI is developed by human so in most cases we do not expect it to surpass the understanding of human, however much the knowledge is collected from different people. So it might seem more intelligent, but it will only have only that data that is from those different people. Even the app or the apps that we do develop, we would just feed them data and then they start to use that data to make analysis, mathematics and other things.
When it comes to the future of humanity, humans should train the young generation before everything goes wrong. Because what we normally do, we as humans, we normally tend to fear that that we do not understand. But if we do, then we just embrace it. So if we train the young generation to use computers, to use AI, do some projects, think big, or think bigger or wider, think in problem solving manners, then they will have AI, computing and technology being embraced under one thing.
When we look at the EDVAC, EDSAC, those first computers that could take up university rooms and now we come to these small computers, that means we cannot stop the evolution of evolving of technology, so it will keep on moving further and further. But how we come together with technology, then we have to embrace it. Yeah, we have those scientists who are maybe born to do that or trained from childhood to think as scientists, think as problem solvers and we have these end users or the people who will use what the others have done. So if we are end users, then we have to learn.
There is something I really like from Africans. There is no person maybe from China, or from America or from Europe who has come in Africa to teach them how to use What’s App, teach them how to use ChatGPT, but they are actually using those applications. So if they can do that, then they can do the same even with AI. I think the future can be controlled and be certain, so I don’t fear the future. Yeah.
Embrace technology and think wider
I like very much the way you said think bigger, and then you changed it or you added think wider. And I think the idea of thinking wider is actually more important than thinking bigger because it includes much more. I think that’s a really smart phrase. I think I’m going to copy that phrase and use it.
Before we close, are there any things that you would like to say, any points you’d like to make?
GODFREY
Maybe making the last remark about AI and human, yeah, and maybe to my follow developers out there. We need to embrace technology, not run away from it. I left university without knowing AI, AI was not yet out, but currently I use it. And if you see somebody who uses it, then just run to that person, you’ll get to know how each and everything can be used.
And then to the rest of the people who are not developers, they are not technological staff, they are just end users because we as developers, we call them end users. So end users or everybody in the world, please try to find what you can do with something new that has come up. Instead of saying, “It will be bad, I can’t use it, it is tricky,” try to find ways. There is something I always think and I want everybody out there to think about the same way. If this current generation doesn’t do something, then the next generation will have a question for us. What did you do in your time? So it is time always to keep things moving, to move on and always to develop something new, come up with some new ideas and do something that will help the next generation. It is so bad for people to ask, “What did you do in your time,” and you have nothing to present.
JANE
So we need to think about future generations and what we’re doing for them and for ourselves, but think about them primarily. Great, very good. So thank you very much for your time, I’ve really enjoyed the conversation.
GODFREY
I’ve enjoyed it too, Jane. Thank you so much for giving me this opportunity.
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