Setting the scene
I’m with Michelle Manafy of Digital Content Next, or DCN, a trade association for premium content publishers. I asked her, what is the future of media? Her answer, when people get information they need and that they can trust in every sense of the word.
Greetings, Michelle. Here we are after many, many, many years of having known each other and here we are now, if we can call this face-to-face. Now you work for Digital Content Next or DCN?
MICHELLE
Yes, I do.
JANE
Can you tell me a little bit about it? I’m really intrigued by the name. That’s a fantastic name.
Digital Content Next for premium content publishers
Thanks. We were actually founded as the Online Publishers Association many, many years ago, but about a decade ago, we changed our name to Digital Content Next to represent the forward-thinking approach of the organization. The organization itself is a trade association dedicated to the needs of premium content publishers. So essentially all of the types of companies that you would associate with news, so companies like BBC, Guardian. And then companies you would associate with entertainment like NBC. And then magazine companies, that’s that company such as Condé Nast. And then also what we would call the pure play, the digital companies that came up digital only, no legacy business, such as Vox. So we represent just a wide spectrum of media companies, publishing organizations, broadcast organizations, but we represent the digital side of their business. So we’re really focused on pushing forward the digital piece.
JANE
That sounds really interesting. Do they voluntarily join?
MICHELLE
It’s a membership organization, so yes, you choose to join and you pay a membership fee for the various services that we provide as well as events, some advocacy in the United States, but also abroad.
JANE
Okay. Good. I have a bunch of questions I want to ask you. Let’s go,
MICHELLE
Let’s go.
Media means getting the content you need and can trust
So I’d like to know what you think the future of media is? What does that mean? And you’re so well-placed.
MICHELLE
I mean, I won’t lie. It is in fact what I think about all day every day. So it’s a fair question, but it’s certainly not an easy one. The future of media, so here’s the tricky bit. The concept of media has never been a stagnant one, certainly you know that as well as anyone. So we can’t expect the pace of change to slow down anytime soon. Therefore, when we talk about the future of media, we could quite literally be talking about day after tomorrow. I mean the pace of change, Jane, it boggles the mind.
But when I think about the future of media, or at least the future of media that I would like to see, it’s one in which people are able to get the information they need, the entertainment they enjoy, and be able to trust in its quality, in its veracity, but also in the ethical provision of the content itself. In the sense that if I am getting media from you, we are having an equitable exchange, in that you are not secretly monitoring me or exploiting my data for uses that I did not anticipate. So for me, the future of media looks like one where people get the information they enjoy, get the information they need, but also can trust it in every sense of the word.
JANE
That is, I think, a dream.
MICHELLE
It’s a utopian vision, Jane, but I’m going to do it. I’m going to make it happen.
What key forces are shaping the media today?
We have to. How do you see the major forces that are influencing media? An obvious one is politics, but that’s not the only one.
MICHELLE
There’s a whole lot there, my sister. But obviously you mentioned politics and I would say historically in democratic societies we would’ve said that the media stood as one of the pillars and was like the other pillars unshakable. Unfortunately, for better or worse, when we look at the media index worldwide, we see a decline in the freedom of the press, the things that underpin, that provide that strong foundation. So governments is absolutely one of them, Jane. But when we look at other forces impacting the media, one of the big ones is going to be technology. To my earlier point about the pace of change, but also technology in the context of the ways in which people consume and enjoy information and the way that continues to change. And it’s important that media organizations are paying attention to those changes. In addition to technology, governments, we also have to think about the shift in just generations, the way people are, the way our culture is, the way we interact with and value information. And I think that’s a big one.
JANE
Do you think the younger generation is very different from, I don’t know, people like you and me?
MICHELLE
I think we’re all different. I’m one of those people who just really rejoices in the fact that we’re all so different. And when we look at generations, and you’ve known me for a long time, Jane, so this is a thing I always pay attention to. For me, when we think about younger people, we think about what’s next. And when you’re talking about a media organization, you’re looking at your next audience, how do I connect with that audience so that I get to keep doing the great job that I do? I get to keep making whatever information and entertainment that I make. So yes, they’re different, first and foremost, because young people, this is going to shock you, Jane, are different than older people. I mean, you think about just the freedom when you’re young and this ability to just be so flexible with life and embrace new things every day. And then let’s face it, we age, we become creatures of habit.
So there’s always these things that each new generation seems different, looks different, but we do have to remember that young people can just be different than older people, particularly when you look at media consumption habits. But then there’s the fact that we just grew up in different worlds. I may be presumptuous, but I’m guessing you had newspapers in your house. We sure did. We talked about the evening news. We didn’t just watch the evening news, we had conversations about it. Can you even imagine now? Can you even imagine a young person sitting down with the five o’clock news? I mean, what an absolutely archaic concept. So yes, they’re different. They’re different for all the right reasons though. So that’s fine by me.
JANE
Something I discovered the other day, my podcast has existed for a little over a year now, and I was looking at some of the statistics and I was looking at age groups. And I discovered to my delight that I have 30% of my audience in the, I think it’s 25 to 35 age group, whereas in YouTube, the average is only 20% on most channels.
MICHELLE
Wow, that’s crazy.
JANE
That really, really pleased me because my whole focus, as you know, is imaginize the future. How can we not control the future, but how can we shape the future? And I would tend to think that older people would be more interested in that because they’d be worried about it, but not necessarily.
The future is a heavy burden for the younger generation
You’re onto something in the sense that the younger generation right now, they may be thinking about the future a lot more than we did. And it’s impressive, but I also think it’s a heavy burden for younger people. I think it’s important that they are active participants in shaping the future they want to see, I think we should all be those people. But I do think that it’s a heavy burden on a young person to look around the world at some of the forces right now. And I think it’s a lot.
JANE
I agree. You mentioned technology, which is obviously a big shaper of media. So my next question you can guess is AI. I mean, there’s just so much to be said about it. We don’t want to go into the rest of our time together talking about AI. But I think AI plays a critical role in media.
AI poses both opportunities and risks for media
I don’t think there’s a way to avoid the impact of AI in any field. I might be able to come up with an AI use case for any field, really because I’m just thinking about it so much. But certainly, especially when we talk about generative AI specifically, obviously, what is it mostly used for? To create content, to create words, narrative, pictures, video, content, music. And purportedly deliver information in the same way that the media has done traditionally. And I say purportedly and I’m sure anybody watching this is familiar with all the reasons that AI isn’t the most reliable when it comes to the provision of information. I think the impact of AI on the media, I mean it’s obvious that it will be transformative. I would be naive to say anything less. I think that the uses for the media, for journalists, for any organization to use AI to help it with a variety of tasks, they’re wonderful. It’s absolutely terrific.
Will AI replace journalists and journalistic integrity?
I think that everyone’s fears around AI, and I actually just looked at research on Friday about the fact that the general public, Pew Research, by the way, the general public is actually fairly skeptical. They feel a bit negative about the way in which AI will impact journalism, journalists in particular. So thank you American public for caring if journalists survive the AI revolution. But journalism, they’re worried and they’re right to worry because the economics of journalism are so bad, they’re so beleaguered that when we look at the ways in which people are concerned about the use of AI, in other words, will AI replace journalists and journalistic integrity? And will we just find information or information-like content on the internet? Will we become ill-informed as a result?
Unintended consequences because we are not regulating in real time.
Will we become less informed, or worse depending on how you play out the scenarios of AI, will we become misinformed in a way that is intentional? In other words, will what we consider to be information actually be false or be propaganda and so on? So I could spiral on how worried I am about AI, but I’m going to say something, Jane, I’m worried about AI in the same way that I am with many new technologies. Because when I look back at the way that technology shapes culture, the way technology shapes law, the way technology shapes the media, what I see is a history of us, and by us I mean regulatory bodies, not really me, constantly playing catch-up with it. And that the unintended consequences are often grave because we are not regulating in real time.
So we don’t look at an emergent technology and say to ourselves, we should slow our role. And I mean, I’m not suggesting we don’t continue to innovate and develop technologies, I’m saying we do need to look at every new technology and think about the potential negative outcomes and be again, active participants in shaping not only the way it’s used, but the way it’s governed. And I think that’s one of the big ones with AI. I don’t think we should wait, I think we have to look at it now.
JANE
Well, the European government has established, I don’t know what they call it, a AI governance document. We’ll see how it goes. But I think they are more advanced in thinking about governance of AI than the United States is.
AI and regulation in countries driven by capitalism
I think that culturally we are capitalists first. So there’s always a notable difference in the way we govern any new developments. And that’s a fact. But even when I look at the way that the EU is looking at AI, there’s a lot of concern about slowing the pace of technological innovation. And I understand that and I understand that when we look at a competitive world, and particularly around AI, the governments that lead with AI are going to have a lot of power. But we have to look at both sides of that power. If that power can be used for ill, and we know it can, we have to pay attention. And we can’t forever justify a slew of unintended bad outcomes for human beings in the name of innovation. And when I say innovation, I really mean money.
JANE
Yeah. So in a country that’s driven by capitalism, that’s driven by money, you were talking about bad things that AI can do. When you think about the ability to create these deep fakes and to trick people and get money out of them and on and on and on, that’s got to be regulated in some way. How can it not be regulated, Michelle? I don’t understand.
Lack of regulation and severe risks for children
So I agree, except when we look at social media, it isn’t regulated. Every single day, social media platforms are used for ill. Everyone loves to tell me about BookTok. “Ah, gosh, TikTok, you’ve got to look at it for books, Michelle. BookTok. It’s amazing.” And all I can think is what about AnorexiaTok? What about BulimiaTok? What about all the corners that we don’t want to focus on, that we don’t want to shine the lights on that are really causing ill in our society? So when we look at AI, and I can’t help but look at it with grave concern in exactly that, we could say, “Oh, a deep fake, it could start a war.” Why yes it could. You know what it’s going to do? It’s going to cause children to harm themselves. We know this. It’s going to be used to cause children to harm themselves. We know this. Will we do anything about it?
JANE
Why not? Why won’t we? Deep down inside, what do you think, Michelle?
Our values are not balanced
Because innovation and money. I mean, our values are just not balanced. It isn’t that I am born in this country, I am a product of capitalism, I climbed right up the ladder in the way that any good American does through education and hard work. I’m all the cliches. But the reality is I’m now in my 50th innovative technology that I have been lucky enough with my career to sit on the front lines and write about and cover. I have always been a techno-optimist, Jane, I have always been a person who said, the good will outweigh the bad. I’m nervous now.
JANE
That’s interesting.
The media as the pillar of democracy faced by authoritarian regimes
Especially when we look at the rise of authoritarian regimes worldwide. And we think about the ways in which the media, so the media as the fourth estate, the media as that pillar of democracy that I mentioned. When we think about the media as this pillar of democracy and then we think about AI and its ability to supplant the media, replace the media, imitate the media, and then we add to the mix the rise of authoritarian regimes. And Jane, I get a little nervous. I don’t know what else to say. It makes me nervous.
JANE
It’s interesting. I talked to Stanley Chen Qiufan, but he thinks that the kind of things you’re talking about, AI stuff in the negative sense can help save us as humans because he said, “We’ve always needed to have an enemy to fight against and now we have an enemy in common. And it may bring us together.”
MICHELLE
I love that perspective, that it would become a shared battle across nations where we might form an alliance. Sadly, when I look at the political systems worldwide, I worry that at least, again, I can’t speak for every country and I remain hopeful that we will form an alliance, but right now it’s not really looking that way to me, Jane. I’d love to see it.
JANE
I have to agree with you. But he has quite a vision of the future.
MICHELLE
Well, I do think one of the wonderful things about entertainment, and remember, I represent entertainment companies too. I wish I got to work more with book authors, but it just doesn’t happen to be my job. But when I look at the power of entertainment to inform people about technology and to shape discourse and shape public thinking, I’m glad he’s thinking about it. Because I still think there’s an opportunity for us. I mean, it’s not too late. There’s an opportunity for us to shape our future. And I know that’s what your podcast is about. So all I can say is we don’t have to sit idly by. We can learn from the past and we can remain optimistic about the future. But we have to be active. We don’t get to sit on the sofa and just wait and see.
Need for an ecosystem for varied creators, different compelling storytelling
Wait and see what happens. We need some kind of ecosystem, I think, where we have the… Well, you are already in an ecosystem because you have a group of different players with probably very different views, even though they’re all on the media.
MICHELLE
I think the trick, Jane, is that right now in America, and I know we’re not alone, technology companies, technology platforms have extremely outsized power. So yes, I work with some of the greats in terms of the quality of information they produce, the beauty of entertainment, the compelling nature of storytelling that these companies do every single day. How can they compete when we live in a world where people spend two-thirds of their time on social platforms? And yes, TikTok is a force that could go either way here. Google is a tricky one for me, but I see the potential of YouTube for media companies of all types, including independent creators like yourself, Jane. Any number of ways that TikTok could go here.
But right now, the way the system is set up, we regulate the media. We don’t really regulate social media. So if that’s where people are spending their time and there’s no one minding the shop, Lord knows what’s getting sold. And I don’t want to sound negative. Honestly, I couldn’t be more excited about the potential for AI to support journalists in their work. I actually worked with a research group where we developed a chatbot to be used internally for editorial collaboration. Essentially, we built a chatbot that became a member of your team, that would participate when you were doing story ideation. So if you’re trying to, say, make sure your sources are more diverse, you could say to it, “Who should I talk to about climate change for this particular angle?”
From working together, to working alone on a technology platform
And it comes to me with, let’s just say, for example, it might come to me with four white men. And I might say to it, “Chatbot, are there really no women or people of color who do this?” And it might suggest some. Or I might say, “These are all Americans. I really would like to include the EU perspective.” And then it could help me. So that’s one way you could use it. But I’m telling you, in olden times, Jane, journalists, even when we first met and I worked at a magazine, we used to sit in a room together and collaborate. We’d yell out to each other, we’d say, “Could you come look at this?” All the time.
And now we all sit in rooms alone and we work on Slack. And so we built this chatbot to integrate with Slack and to really help foster more collaboration so that you’re not working alone. So instead of looking at the chatbot as, say, someone who wants to replace me, we think of it as maybe a really smart and ambitious intern. And work with it rather than work against it. So I don’t want to sound negative, I just think that it’s important, as with all new technologies, that we consider the possible negative and unintended consequences of our use of technology.
JANE
Yeah, I intend to set up with ChatGPT. I need help finding people to interview in countries where I don’t have any particular connections. And in particular South America is one of those countries. Africa, I can build up my connections because different people know each other.
MICHELLE
Well, I’m just going to say to all your listeners and viewers, drop some suggestions in the comments, folks. JANE needs ideas, help JANE out. This is a community and this is how we get better at what we do. Sorry, Jane, a little plug.
Educational systems for children should prioritize curiosity and critical thinking
No, that’s great. Thank you. You can do it better than I can. Now, changing the angle. I’ve done a lot of thinking and writing about education or learning. It depends on what you want to call it. What do you think needs to be improved in our educational system?
MICHELLE
I’m going to say something that, I don’t know, you told me the age of your audience, actually I think this might resonate with your audience. I don’t think they need to use technology. What did she say? I am a tech person. I have written about technology since maybe the second or third yea. I was a journalist. So approximately 1 million years I’ve been writing about technology. And I love it. I love it. I get up every day and I play with some toys and I love me some toys. But when we think about the way that we tiny brains develop, when we think about the neuroscience of the way brains develop and the way those wonderful sparks happen and those connections happen in the brain, technology isn’t helping us there. It’s not helping us. And I read recently, and guys, I don’t know my source on this one, and forgive me because I don’t want to be wrong, but that for 100 years, IQs were going up. They’re not anymore. And it isn’t that we don’t have the capacity because children are born with infinite capacity.
JANE
Yeah. And interest and curiosity.
MICHELLE
We have to let those sparks, those connections form before we introduce technology. And again, now Jane, I don’t teach children, I shouldn’t be trusted with that. That is a big responsibility and talented, talented people do it. But the fact is, even when I look at the way we use an AI, and I don’t want to make this about AI again, but an AI search engine versus a traditional search engine, and you think about you’re getting an answer rather than finding information that you have to process and distill. And we don’t want to take away those formative pieces, those pieces that ladder up to our fully realized brains too soon. So if it was up to me, there’s this, I don’t know if you’ve seen it, the school district in the UK that had parents sign a voluntary contract not to give kids phones until what we would call middle school, junior high.
JANE
I saw that.
MICHELLE
Did you see that?
JANE
I saw that. That’s recent.
MICHELLE
Yes. That idea is just fascinating to me. Because I, like the people who decided to spearhead that initiative in the UK, I read that the big technology guys, the Zucks of the world, don’t let the little ones around them use phones, they don’t let the little ones around them use iPads. And you know what? They could be onto something. So that’s my two cents.
JANE
But I think we all have opinions about children, how they should be raised or not raised. Imagine a child born today, what kind of media world do you hope they grow up with by the time they’re 18?
MICHELLE
I want children to be curious. You mentioned curiosity.
JANE
Yeah.
Curiosity is a magic bean you plant, it grows through the clouds and there’s a giant
I don’t think we should grow out of it. I think that when you look at that curiosity of children, it is magic. It is a magic bean that you plant and it grows through the clouds and there’s a giant. That is something that no platform or publication can replace.
JANE
Yeah.
MICHELLE
So I would like a world in which we just fostered more curiosity, more questions, more open discussion. When we look at the polarization of media, not just in the US, but worldwide, we stopped listening to each other, we stopped being curious about each other. I’m not like you, Jane. Oh, well, we have great conversations. We learn things when we talk to each other. We don’t even have to agree. What a concept. Because agreement, frankly, a little boring. And I stop learning.
JANE
Yeah. Absolutely. It’s when we have disagreement that things become interesting.
MICHELLE
I’m not going to kid myself and say that I can tell you what it’s going to look like or what it should look like. Because the reality is the shape of it is almost not the point, the object, the product. It’s the impetus behind it, it’s the curiosity, it’s the wonder, it’s the joy, it’s the confusion and the figuring out.
JANE
I was just going to say that when you say figuring out. Because Sugata Mitra, one of his main things is you have to figure it out. That when you have children together and you want them to learn something, ask them a question and tell them, nobody knows the answer to this yet. There’s nothing, he said, more motivating than that. And those kids will go about searching on the internet, looking into things to figure it out.
Ideal media landscape for children brings a sense of wonder and learning about the world
But again, figure it out in the yard, go out in the yard and tell me why bees buzz. Just more wonder, more joy, less looking down and more looking up. I know that probably sounds so hippie. I don’t care. Because I think when we allow our minds to do this, we will grow and we will grow as people and we will grow as a society. And when I look at the role of the media historically, which is 100% my job, I think about the media, that’s my job. The media was a window. I think about the magazines I looked at as a child, about watching documentaries on television, about sitting with my grandparents and talking about a movie. It was a window to another world. And unfortunately, despite the fact that we have the World Wide Web and we have social media, I worry that our world isn’t getting bigger.
JANE
That it’s closing in on us.
MICHELLE
And I hope when I think about the future, I want to see that promise, that initial promise of bringing us together, of allowing us to hear each other and see each other and really learn, just learn, learn and accept that people are different and people have different ideas. I don’t think that’s controversial. I just think that’s a fact. And that differences are what make us interesting and curiosity is how we get there. That’s what I want to see, Jane. Just the little thing.
JANE
The littlest things can be very big. Michelle, thank you so much for your time.
MICHELLE
It’s always been good talking to you. And it was good talking to you today.
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